This is to allow those interested in a syndicate horse to discuss it away from the main Talking Horses threads.
Comments are infinite, so hopefully there’ll be no problems, although you might have to scroll to find the thread if it has not been active for a few days.
Joe
Thank you Joe. I for one and in and very open minded with regard to flat or NH, UK or France. As for trainers, I would prefer a smaller yard.
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Thanks Joe. Like DN, am quite open minded re Flat / NH, UK / France etc….
I suppose it might be useful if we were to break the whole thing down into some high level sequential steps to give the uninitiated, like myself, a bit of an idea of what we will need to do to get there.
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I see the first stage as identifying who amongst us are into this. We need at least 10 and probably more so that the individual financial outlay is not too steep. Then, if this happens, and if he is interested, Dilton should source the horse, as he had the greatest knowledge and connections.
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Depending on costs, I’m totally up for this.
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Certainly interested…Costs will be key for most i expect
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Hi. I have a small share in a couple of horses already and it’s great fun. So count me in for a TH syndicate. I agree with the smaller yard sentiment either NH or flat.
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Sorry that’s from Comartun. Regular reader.
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This might sound harsh but reality is better than dreaming.
Its utterly pointless in my opinion going for a NH horse first time round (or at all unless we have mega bucks for me to go shopping )
As I’ve said many times, nowadays more than ever,its not will a NH horse get a leg ,but when.
Training jumpers is heart breaking ,its soul destroying . I couldn’t stomach it any longer as the drop out rate is awful.
It’s ok if you have a continuous supply like Nicholls and Henderson but if you are ticking away with a few when one gets injured ,or worse,it knocks you right back as you are close to them.
I’m thinking that most who would get involved are newish to owning and having the disappointment first time round is not good.
Several other things ko a NH horse in my opinion ,firstly the cost of getting anything decent,and the time factor in it reaching the course ( if it ever does )
If I had a quid for everytime an owner has said to me ,” give him as much time as he needs ” then 6 weeks later the phones ringing asking when will it run I’d be wearing Sketchers not Aldi trainers.
Yes I could pick up a cheapie at the sales who has problems but once a horse has gone on one leg, invariably he or she will go on the other sooner rather than later as they compensate .( as Mark Johnston has just had happen with his good horse ) These sorts take time ,and time means money.
I’m a 100% sure it has to be a French bred 2 yo filly and be trained in France to take advantage of the prize money and premiums and the less competitive nature of the 2yo filly races there for the type we can afford.
The French breeze up sales have lots of hidden gems in them which can be picked up for reasonable money ready to run in a few weeks ,rather than 6 months or so.
Also getting a well bred filly who failed to sell on lease is a very good option from a top breeder whose arm I can twist .
Doing it that way we could afford to have 2 or 3 as the capital invested to buy 1 can be used against the monthly running costs etc.
There’s always a decent chance of a return if you buy fillies and if they are no good someone will always want to breed a horse ,TB or Polo Pony etc.
Now,I know it’s been said that idea might not appeal as potential shareholders would not fancy not seeing the horse run here , but I dont get that based on the huge difference in costs against the % chance of success and returns. Its bloody hard to win a race here ,any race ,believe me.
Keep yourself in the best company but your horse in the lowest was the best advice my old head lad ever gave me.
We can start the filly off in the Provinces, around the gaffs picking off weak races and hopefully progress to running at the better tracks as she matures .
That’s my advice ,but I will go along with what the majority want and do what I can to get something with a chance.
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Sound words Dilton. As we have discussed before I have a small interest in 2 young horses in training near Pau. It’s affordable and the communication is good. For a new syndicate, from the more professional perspective there is sense in starting with the more economical and resourceful French route and I would be happy to follow this.
However, some on these pages may favour a UK based horse, simply to be more involved and connected, rather than looking on this as success based. If this is the route we take, then I would favour an emerging trainer.
We will find out in the coming weeks the extent of interest and the basis of it.
Afterall, if we do pick up a dosser we could always call it MJW1959 😉
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Miserable Michael would strike a chord.
Terry Kent has forgotten more than most of the younger trainers know. Hes got a small team and he improves horses ,places them well if it’s a horse here .
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One option to deal with the cost factor could be to have 10%, 5%, 2.5% & 1% shares, as most syndicates do, but we keep the identity of the percentage holders anonymous, other than to those running the syndicate. In this way, the horse feels to be equally shared.
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Dilton you make some excellent points and whilst it would be nice to let the heart rule the head I think it makes sense if we let the head rule the heart.
Seems like Flat over jumps is a no brainer and France over UK also
Genuine question. With the rise in prominence of low budget airlines, would it be that much more expensive to plan a day or 2 trip over to France as opposed to travelling around the UK ? (my impression is UK train fares are not cheap).
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Covid rules at present doesn’t it re travel until things get back to normal.
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Count me in,Gourin56 on TH
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Apart from the fact I live in France,the other advantage is that if it is not fast enough,we could enter it into extremely lucrative Trotting races!!!
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In Malta I believe they tend to buy trotting horses from France that are a bit past their prime so there’s maybe a chance I might get to see it in the flesh 🙂
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On a quick count from this thread and previous pages, there’s 8 of us interested so far. I list them to avoid any confusion, please comment to remove or add if I have made an error:-
Jamie, Rob J., David, Comartun, Gourin56, Simon Thompson (from 2-3 days ago), Dilton and DirtyNortherner.
I am doing this to define the interest and will update accordingly. My apologies if I have missed someone.
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Just passing on my experience of having a leg in a couple – one v.good on the flat the other class 6 over the jumps. Stable visits and seeing your horse on the gallops is a huge part of the enjoyment of ownership. As is being able to be on course to watch it run. If all this is happening at a great distance you may not feel that involved and will miss out on the best part of ownership.
imo it’s also important to get a good bunch of owners together. You’ll experience defeat many times and unexplained poor runs can be hard to take. So it really helps if the owners are the sort of people who can enjoy a day out at the races for what it is. Take the defeats on the chin, head for the Champagne Bar and plot the next run.
Good Luck. (Bon chance, even)
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While not looking for immediate gratification, i think we should aim for something that will run in foreseeable, Not NH then much as its my preferred code. I’m laissez fair with country – that why god invented Tv and internet.
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Thanks for update, neither rich nor poor my top end is about 60 a month – could stretch a vey little. i understand that horses cost money , if only i had more
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Many thanks David. It would be good to have you on board. Would you consider a 2.5% involvement for now and if the training costs come down you could go to 5%? I only say this to establish the level of interest.
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2.5% sounds about right for me at the minute. Lets hope we can get to 100!
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Good man David.
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DN, many thanks for the update and info. Whack me down for 10%.
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Good man, Jamie. I’m in on 10% also.
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Hi DN,
Put me down for 2.5%. I have 2 other horses with MPR so that’s my limit. Thanks for all your tips by the way.
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Welcome aboard Comartun. I just got out of jail today with the saver – Francky du Berlais.
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I’m up for 5%
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Good man, Aurorian!
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I’ll come in at 2.5%. Might be able to got to 5% going forward.
Can see the logic of a French, flat horse.
Savoieblue on TH
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Welcome in Paul (Savoieblue). I’ll put you down for 2.5% now and you can go more when all the costs are calculated.
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Here’s a summary after Day 1:-
David – 2.5%
Luke – 2.5%
Comartun – 2.5%
EGS – 2.5%
Jamie – 10%
DN – 10%
That’s 30%.
Please correct me if I have made an error. Once we get to 60-70% we will start putting something together for you all to consider.
For now it’s going to be in France and on the flat. Is this ok for you all?
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Aurorian has just come in for 5%.
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Oui 😉
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RobJ is now in for 2.5% and, perhaps 5%, if the costs work out better
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Just a reminder of Dirty Northerner’s proposed structure:
I wanted to refresh the discussion on the potential Talking Horses syndicate and I am suggesting the potential costs that could be incurred. Please consider the below and respond on the Syndicate thread.
Syndicate – So if we take a £12k purchase as a starting point:-
10% share £1200
5% share £ 600
2.5 share £ 300
Training @ €2000
10% share £170
5% share £ 85
2.5 share £ 43
Then registration, vet, entry fees are split accordingly.
The costs are based on a decent trainer in France. Some vet costs may be included in the monthly fees.
This is a guide for now and to further the discussion.
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I’m definitely still interested, I might have to wait until we have a clearer picture of the costs before deciding what % to go for though.
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Good man RobJ. The costs above are quite accurate and, if anything, the training fees may come down a little, as we have opted for a decent trainer. There’s no commitment until we get the precise costs. Can I put you down for 2.5% or 5% for now? I only ask this because I want to get to the 60-70% before we start the serious work. All the best.
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Yeah definitely, I might lean more towards 5%, but if we say 2.5% first just to be on the safe side and we can work from there.
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Thanks Rob.
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DN,
Can I just clarify something as if we are struggling to get to 60/70 (or even 100%) I can ask a couple of mates who like a punt to see if they fancy a slice (I can also stretch another 5% if necessary)
Just want to clarify re the costs / workings if I need to explain it.
12 grand horse – 10% = £1200 (no problems – lower percentage appropriate amount)
Training = £ 2 grand, but we are saying 10% is 170 ? Any reason why its 170 not 200 ? Also am I correct in assuming this is a one off annual cost ?
The registration, vet, entry etc…. is that coming out of the missing 30 quid or there would be ad hoc fees (if so do we know what the rough monthly outlay would be) ?
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Thanks Jamie. Let’s see how far we get to the middle of this week. I am aware of someone else on these threads who will come in for 5-10%, so we are nearly at 50%. Then there are one or two who previously said they were interested who have not responded yet – holidays?
If we struggle then let’s ask those committed so far if your mates can join in.
The 2000 is euros, so it breaks down to about £1700 each month. This is based on a decent French trainer. I would hope that a further £30 for a 10% would cover the incidentals, unless the horse gets an injury. Vets costs in France are lower than here.
As mentioned previously on this thread, no one needs to commit fully until we have a complete breakdown of costs.
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Many thanks for the clarification DN.
Being based in Malta I think I Euros but still have a UK account so can weigh out in either currency.
Also, would just like to say thanks and well done for your explaining, organising, cajoling etc…. Much appreciated.
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You are welcome Jamie.
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Finally found the thread.
I am inclined to think France because of Prize money.
I think Flat is best for reasons Dilton outlined; Tendon injuries with a 2 year rest would try anyone’s patience.
I presume the owners will be called the Talking Horses Syndicate.
What about the Silks? I have a signed Nijinsky photo by Piggot, A painting of The Minstrel and I strangely purchased a painting of Solinus. So a twist on the Engelhard, Sangster or Schwartz colours would find no objection but I don’t mind.
I do favour a Filly from a reasonable family as there might be a chance to sell her on to a shed.
I don’t want to send one to the Abattoir and 25 years of maintenance of a non-working Horse is a difficult proposition.
Some of us will be dead and our Children won’t pay the fees.
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Forgot to say I also have Sterling and Euros Accounts.
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EGS, in terms of silks should we not employ a bit of psycho analysis (I don’t mean asking Stuart Pearce for his opinion, although if anyone has his number I’d be more than happy to hear his thoughts).
Is there not something about Red being a dominant / aggressive colour (I am sure I remember reading something about Shanky changing Liverpool’s kit to all red) ? I support Charlton for my sins so it also fits that narrative:-)
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Charlton Athletic practically rared my son when I lived in Greenwich. Summer Holidays and some of the half terms were farmed out to their brilliant Volunteers who came to his School or brought them up the park.
In another prior Role I can tetstify Charlton Athletic did amazing outreach to North Kent in people with Learning Disability who have offended. I know it is their catchment area due to the Railway Lines but that was the extra mile to me.
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EGS, we’ve always been a good community club and always had a good youth system / production line. A lot of that must stem from “The Valley Party” / getting back to The Valley etc….
I lived in Blackheath. Used to drink down in Greenwich all the time (Hardy’s mainly).
How I long for a pint in a decent proper boozer (unfortunately we don’t have many of em over here).
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Good post EGS and we will carry your thoughts forward. We are looking to France and Dilton is on board. I agree on the Talking Horses Syndicate, but we need to see what the rules are in France.
I have a very small interest in two over there already, so advice should be forthcoming.
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Fat fingers! That’s me DN.
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I tried last night to bring the the thread up the hierarchy without much success. Search box at top right of the main page is always best for getting there quickly.
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Happy with flat and french proposal, seems like the best option (I’ll go with whatever). 2.5%
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Thanks Luke
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Put me in for 5%
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That was me above in for 5%
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A hearty welcome to one of the best names on these pages.
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Hi,Gourin56 here,2.5% please
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Good to have you involved Gourin56.
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If it is buying I will commit to 2.5,I am not keen on a lease though if this is any help.
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Understood Jakebuckfast and welcome. Would you consider a lease, with the option to buy? I’m just putting this out as it could be an option.
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I am no expert but that sounds a better option.So yes.
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Good morning all and good luck with your bets today. I would now like to provide you with an update regarding the syndicate. After one week we are at 60% with members and this is encouraging.
Here is a breakdown of the potential members to date. Please excuse and correct any mistakes or omissions.
David – 2.5%
Luke H – 2.5%
Comartun – 2.5%
EGS – 2.5%
Aurorian – 5%
Jamie – 10%
Rob J – 2.5%
Betlikemen – 5%
Gourin56 – 2.5%
Savoieblue – 2.5%
Jakebuckfast – 2.5%
Dilton – 10%
DirtyNortherner – 10%
Two or three of the above have stated they may increase their stakes once the final costs have been confirmed. I will also add that all members can confirm their commitment once the final costs are in.
This gives us £7,200 towards the horse and £1020 per month for training.
Dilton1 has been working on finding the horse and feelers have already gone out to top stud farms in France asking what they have available and he will be checking them over in September. In addition he has the best bloodstock agent in the U.K. looking for the syndicate, without charge.
Now for some questions to help go forward with both the membership and the horse.
First, regrading our options for the horse. To date we have been looking for a 2 year old flat horse to race in France. While the flat is considered to be the best option to start with there are some late maturing horses coming up on the market these days and in the near future. For instance, David Evans bought a decent looking horse out of a seller for £4K this week. I am raising this because it could be viable for a new syndicate going with something of possible short term potential now, and in the U.K., rather than waiting for 2022.
The next question is the idea of leasing a horse, with an option to buy. Leasing a filly is by far and away the best option as the risks are negated and we could get a top class bred individual. Something that would be far out of our reach to buy. Why aim low and end up with a class 5 or 6 animal?
This could also mean, if costs allow, there is the possibility to have more than one. By including an option to buy we are covering ourselves if she turns out very good.
There are two things really to consider. One is finding a relatively decent filly and the other is to establish the syndicate as good a basis as possible.
The final question is do we confine the membership to those Talking Horse regulars only? I ask this because a couple of people have mentioned that their mates may like to be involved. What are your thoughts on this? One option would be to involve them providing they join and contribute a little to this blog.
In time the syndicate will have it’s own lines of communication, probably at WhatsApp group to start, then a designated website (the domain has already been purchased).
An option of the name TALKING HORSES is being taken with Weatherbys for 90 days.
However, for now, I required some feedback on the above questions to enable the options on the horse to be considered and for the research we are carrying out to go forward.
Please respond to these thoughts on the SYNDICATE PAGE in order that Saturday’s blog can run smoothly.
Thanks for you commitment so far!
DN
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I will not be involved in the syndicate (unfortunately!) but am very interested to see how it goes and wish it the very best of luck. Just read DNB’s update…very interesting and detailed, a lot of work is going into this, congratulations to all involved in the set up.
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Thanks Bacciodilupo. Hope to have you on board one day 😉
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The lease idea seems good.
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Agreed EGS
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I’m easy, although the lease idea sounds like it could be good. Re silks, as a spurs fan, I’m not sure how well red sits with me lol. I was thinking maybe we should go with something that stands out, thus if we have to watch over the internet, it might be easier to spot on a dodgy feed.
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I like the idea of a 2yo filly racing in France. However, if Dilton comes up with a recommended older horse then I think we’d be foolish to ignore that. In fact, a lightly raced or unraced 3yo might be a better option (less injuries to worry about).
Regarding finance, it occurs to me that it costs as much to train a Class 6 horse as it does a Class 2 horse. I’d rather pay more to buy a good prospect than save on the initial outlay and still pay the same training fees. Leasing might be the best option considering our target figure is only 12k.
I’m relaxed about membership. I don’t post much but read a lot so I’m not feeling exclusive!
DN – A big thank you for all your work organising the syndicate so far (and for the tips!).
P.S. I’m also interested in taking a bigger share depending on training fees.
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DN, as always many thanks for all the work you are doing in this regard, and Dilton as well.
Comartun raises an excellent point about the training (ie it will cost the same amount to train an expensive one as a cheaper one).
Based on the comments above the leasing option seems it would allow us to be involved with something that would be initially out of our league, price wise, and then I presume there would be a set price by a deadline or something like that. So happy to go down that route. However it seems we have a few different options still, and without trying to sound like a cop out, if you or Dilton say option x is the best, then I’m happy to go with you on that.
I terms of silks, RobJ, apologies it was me who suggested that based on some flimsy reference to the psychology of the colour. If it does end up being red I’ll fully support you with there being no cannons anywhere in sight.
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Or what about Peru 78. Plain white with a red stripe going across diagonally. A thing of beauty.
I do find it disturbing the lack of diagonal striped kits knocking around in modern day football.
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I agree with you on Peru in ’78 but will that exclude Scottish members who may want to join up?
Crystal Palace also had a nice Chevron in the ’70s.
It is important not to use thin hoops like QPR or Celtic as it will make the Jockey appear fat and give the opposition a Psychological advantage.
Thicker hoops like McManus and Danny Shwartz are acceptable.
I understand the argument for going for a 25 grand Horse instead of a 12 grand horse as the costs are in maintenance not purchase price.
The important caveat is the Horse will useless either way and we are only signing up for the fun of throwing money away at something that might be a more fun way to throw money away than the other things we spend on.
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EGS, we can’t be having anything to do with Palace given our links to the mighty CAFC now can we (despite it being a bloody nice kit).
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As somebody who has been involved in many syndicates, I hope nobody will mind if I make a few practical suggestions.
I recognise that to some here I will be teaching my grandmother how to suck eggs and I also recognise that we are in very early days, but here goes:
The syndicate will need to have a structure and clearly understood rules.
Expectations will need to be set realistically from the outset.
The syndicate should be run as openly and democratically as is practicable – but with the recognition that at times somebody may have to make an executive call.
A formal agreement will need to be drawn up with exit rules for those who want to leave the group or those who default.
Liability insurance will need to be in place (in the UK this is covered by Racehorse Owners Association membership but I am not sure what happens in France).
There will ideally be a single point of contact for instructing/liaising with the trainer.
A process for regular updates for all owners will need to be put in place – periodically these to include financial status.
Accounts will need to be produced when the horse(s) are eventually sold or retired.
As has already been suggested there needs some form of surplus funding built in to cover additional vets/transport/insurance bills.
Much of the above is some way down the road, but I think that it is useful for prospective shareholders to understand the nature of the undertaking.
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Sound advice Aurorian. Some of this has been considered, some remains to be. An agreement for the syndicate members will be drawn up and I may use the one I have for the two French horses I am involved in. An account, financial updates and insurances will also be put in place. Advice from another syndicate has been suggested and it will be taken.
For now, I will use this thread for updates and discussion. In time, a WhatsApp group and/or website can follow.
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All good stuff. Not over minded re silks, Peru 78 does bring back some unfortunate football memories tho I’d be keen to see something run in the syndicate name sooner rather than later and see no harm in having some non contributors involved – it’s not like we all fought in the same regiment or such. Much thanks to those working on this for us all.
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A couple of horses I was involved in both had predominately orange colours & these really stood out during the race.
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DN Kudos to you for all the hard work so far; put me for 2,5%. Re silks canvass everyone’s favourite colour (there may be duplicates) and have polka dots in those colours on a suitably light background? only a suggestion.
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Welcome along arkle66.
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I’m relaxed about which route is chosen, whether it be ownership or leasing – I’m totally new to it and happy to listen to others with experience.
As for colours, maybe blue could be involved, and we could somehow represent the Guardian Talking Horses as a sinking ship! Or maybe a phoenix as Talking Horses is reborn….
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Thanks LukeH. We are looking into options on the horse and the route. I will post a summary this weekend.
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Hi DN – late to the party. All sounds good to me. Stick me down for 2.5% currently.
Thanks for all you and Ds efforts
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Welcome aboard Steelman
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Good morning to all,
I will start with an update of the current syndicate outline commitments. This is encouraging and I am pleased to say that two or three may commit further once they know what is the extent of the initial financial involvement.
David – 2.5%
Luke H – 2.5%
Comartun – 2.5%
EGS – 2.5%
Aurorian – 5%
Jamie – 10%
Rob J – 2.5%
Betlikemen – 5%
Gourin56 – 2.5%
Savoieblue – 2.5%
Jakebuckfast – 2.5%
Arkle66 – 2.5%
TheSteelman – 2.5%
Dilton – 10%
DirtyNortherner – 10%
Total – 65%
Dilton and myself have had further conversations this week on the type of horse and the basis of the syndicate.
This is a two-fold operation – to find a relatively interesting horse while, at the same time, starting a new syndicate. The current thinking is we find a horse that will run in the relatively short term, be it flat, national hunt or dual purpose. This horse may be a lease or a purchase out of the sales, stable or a breeder, based on Dilton’s expertise.
I consider it important to start the syndicate with something happening in the short term, rather than purchasing a yearling and then waiting for a relatively considerable time to see the horse in action. The mid to longer term aim is to become involved in a decent class of horse and probably in France.
Taking a horse now, on the basis outlined above, could well lead to paying less for the lease or the purchase, while getting the syndicate up and running. We would then look at options for a further horse.
I will add that any horse we get involved with will have a post career welfare plan established.
As we can potentially progress in the near future, I will start working on establishing a WhatsApp group, then an email address for the syndicate members as our correspondence will need to become private. I will continue to update the Blog on our activities for others to follow.
I will also be drafting a Syndicate Agreement for each member, with their percentage confirmed.
I will also be asking for around 25% up front, so we have something to work with in terms of sourcing the horse.
In the recent days Dilton has identified a possible horse in the U.K. and we are making enquiries. I will report back on this if there are positive developments.
Finally, with regard to a better class of horse, we have identified one or two opportunities from some major trainers and owners. These possibilities have a link to the Cancer Research support that a number of us contributed to on The Guardian’s Talking Horses blog by giving a small percentage of any winnings to this charity. By including this aspect in the syndicate ownership we believe that we could get access to a very decent horse, while supporting a very decent charity.
So, my final question is, would the syndicate members to date support the Cancer Research idea ?
I look forward to reading your thoughts.
All the best,
DN
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Above posted on behalf of Dirty Northerner
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DN / Dilton, as always many thanks for the sterling work being undertaken.
Fully supportive on The Cancer idea.
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Cancer Research Idea
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All that sounds very reasonable and positive. Cancer research contribution is fine by me.
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The horse I went for earlier this week had no mileage on the clock having only had a few runs as as a 2 yo and a couple at 3. Big rangy gelding ,still maturing . Ideal dual purpose type .Unfortunately for us he then goes and runs 2nd and what was a 5k price turned into 20k.
I’ve several others to get checked out around that price next week that will do the job.
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All in favour of the Cancer Research idea
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All in Favour of supporting charity. Sounds great folks. Thanks Dilton and DN.
Looks like this is really gaining some traction.
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Many thanks DN and Dilton and totally behind the Cancer Research link, It would be great to have “our horse” running soonish and i look forward to cheering it on.
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