Horsetalk Friday December 10th 2021

Naps Table Update – an unusual nap landed today for El Gran Senor who nominated two in a double; both won – Guily Billy at 13/8 in the 12.35 and She’s Some Doll at 11/2 – for a 16.06/1 double.

DN and Mickle napped the 7/4 winner Glancing Queen (who’s in my ten to follow), and Rob J had a sweet winner in Lime Drop, 11/8 – well done all. Many of our tipsters are having good December.


Frost-Dunne

A sad day for racing, the most striking factor for me being the continued support for Dunne by the PJA, easily read between the lines of their statement yesterday. The one they made in October on his behalf asking for the case to be dropped stunned me, as an old racing PR man. Now, I cannot see a way their exec can stay in place, nor should they.

What are your thoughts on the whole situation and the verdict?


Betfair Naps Table

Starting November 1st 2021, Betfair have kindly agreed to provide two tickets each month to the winner of the naps table for one of their sponsored racedays.

Please post your nap each day using the comments section below this thread. All welcome. You need not post every day and can join in at any point in the month, as one big priced winner could win you the prize, which is settled on the tipster showing the biggest profit at the end the month. But, bear in mind that on days your name does not appear on the Daily Naps Results winners list, you’ll be assumed to have picked a loser.

For example, if at the end of the month your name is on the list once with a 25/1 winner, you will have your £250 profit from that nap deducted from assumed losing stakes for each other day. Assuming a 30-day month, your total stakes would be viewed as £300, returns as £260, for a loss of £40. I hope this makes sense. If you can think of a better way or a way to express this more clearly, please leave a comment below.

You need post only the horse’s name, but feel free to elaborate on your reasons for picking it.

If your selection secures a return – EW naps are allowed – please post the result in the Winners Thread stating it was your nap and mentioning the SP. Non runners will be settled as a break even day.

Profit will be calculated to a £10 stake on each selection. EW selections will be staked at £5EW.

All naps will be settled at SP, so please do not include an early price. This will help maintain clarity and reduce the chances of disputes. We will use standard place rules a la Tattersalls to settle EW naps. Otherwise I need to start checking place offers, non runners affecting it, etc. Doubtless some will suffer because of this, but I think it will even out in the end.


This Site

This site is open to all. It’s free and there’s no need to enrol formally, but if commenting, please choose a username when making your comment.

We discuss horse racing mostly, but have a Lounge if you want to bring up any other subject.

You are welcome to enter our Daily Naps Challenge – a fun competition for which Betfair kindly donates two Raceday tickets every month for the winner.

The rules for the site are basic: be kind to everyone, and please don’t swear. We are not prudes, but we do not have a moderator other than me – Joe McNally, and I don’t want to spend a lot of time monitoring the site. If you see something you want to report, you can do so confidentially using the Contact page.

Finally, there are some hardened and skilled tipsters here and each has their good and bad runs. When one starts a good run, it can seem to the less experienced that all prayers have been answered, and a holy grail of winners has been found. But please never make that assumption. It’s not the way things work in betting, for anyone. Sharks flogging baited tips would have you believe that this holy grail does exist. Well, there is a collective punting experience on this site numbering, I’d say, close to 500 years. Not a single tipster here will tell you that reliable profits can be made from betting racehorses.

So, this is not a mild and dutiful problem betting disclaimer. I’ve been in the business since 1971 and have seen any amount of God’s misery caused by betting beyond means. Punting is a brilliant pastime, but a horrible compulsion, a fantastic servant, but a dreadful master. Never bet more than you can afford to lose with a smile … and there’s plenty of big smiles in small stakes.

Good luck

Joe

78 comments

  1. While applauding the nap of EGS (comment on Winners Thread), can I take it that a nap can now be a double, treble, Yankee, four fold etc.?

    I ask because my preferred bet is a stand our single, and/or a double/treble.

    I would also add that we should also consider the timing of bets and prices. SP’s are not relevant to a lot of punters. Why take 7/4 when 3s are available the night before?

    These are suggestions and not criticisms.

    Like

    1. Fair point. A bold move by EGS which took me by surprise when I opened the Winners Thread. Still, it is not currently forbidden in the rules, but I’d happily make it so. Singles only – EW allowed. I’ll bow to the majority – what do you think?

      On early prices I have mixed feelings. On one popular forum they allow it but posters must stipulate whose price they are quoting and at what time of the day – do we really want to get into that? We are all working pretty well together here for now, but if the site grows we will inevitably have people saying, hold on that one he napped, the price had actually shortened at 19.59, the time he claimed it was available etc etc. We then need a referee to start digging back through records etc, not to mention the sour feelings that can build. But, again, I will go with the majority decision so long as it does not cause me more work.

      Like

  2. Am very tempted to nap Plan of Attack in the cross country as I think he would have won last time had his rider not had a Skelton-like mad turn, rushing him up from last to 5th in about a hundred yards. But better value lies in the Cheltenham specialist Kansas City Chief, whose jockey, Victoria Mallard is very stylish and well wort her claim. He is the nap.

    Like

    1. Nap: Plan of Attack :p … actually that’s a race where each fresh look at the racecard makes you feel strongly about a different horse. Still, i think the experience of that last race where the late money came for it, if I recall correctly, will help horse and rider. As for the Bryony Frost case, seemed like an open-and -shut case of bullying and misogyny and so it has proved. If it’s a cultural issue rather than a strictly individual problem then by its nature it will take a long time and hard work to fix. Sunlight is the best disinfectant…

      Like

  3. Now for the Frost/Dunne saga. It’s difficult to comment without knowing the entire facts.

    Don’t be swayed by the media reporting of this case. They need to sell papers, get watchers and click-bait. They play the story the way that suits them best.

    Why trust the BHA, a body that takes a stand on this affair, while not being present with a representative at the Tylicki/Gibbons trial?

    In my opinion, this sad affair should have been settled ‘in-house’ . If Dunne was a bully, this should have been sorted out. If Gibbons regularly had alcohol on his breath, this should have been sorted out.

    As Joe says, it’s a sad day for racing. The weighing room is no place for bad jockeys.

    Like

    1. I will also add that the litmus test for this sad affair is if a #metoo situation evolves.

      That’s a question you will not find asked in the racing media.

      Like

  4. The more I heard of the antics of Robbie Dunne and , by implication , his supporters the more I was reminded of boarding school in the 60s and 70s and not pleasurably . The professional environment in which I work would not have tolerated even one instance of the behaviour which Dunne readily admitted . This is 2021 not 1921 and the mealy mouthed response of the PJA does not portray them well at all . Their attempts to have the case dismissed were farcical . The only people who were relevant to that sideshow were the panel and they already knew the information which was the subject of the leaks . Since both Dunne and Frost were members the PJA should just have just shut up and let the panel get on with their job . This decision will hopefully persuade racing that it is not somehow apart from normal life in its own cocoon but as much a part of normal life as any other working environment and expected to act accordingly . .

    Like

    1. I agree with much of your comment. The past behaviour of the PJA is poor. However, equally, the general behaviour of the BHA is poor.

      Like

  5. Guily Billy was always going to make amends for the shame he brought upon himself last time and was actually 8/13 when I put him in my nap double.
    He actually shortened to 2/5 at one point and then did a drift.
    I felt the need to add another runner to offset his 8/13 price and the 3/1 on She’s Some Doll seemed attractive.
    Clearly the 17.06 double with 16.06 profit was a fluke as they both drifted like Clints after I made my nap which I thought might return about 5/1 when I napped.
    It is impossible to verify the odds at time of posting as we all use different Bookies and only recorded SPs can be allowed.
    I won 5/1 on One True King last week with my Bookie but it gave me 11/4 in the naps competition.
    What comes around goes around.
    I do think multiples should be allowed.
    Many on this Forum are naturally attracted to backing underpiced Favourites like Frankel, Winx, Zenyatta, Black Caviar, Enable and Melody Belle.
    It has kept my coffers ticking over.
    Many will also look to the SF as finding the Runner Up is more tricky and I believe that should be rewarded.
    This isn’t a Newspaper naps competition and I don’t believe in Singles only betting in a Forum like this.
    If you can think you can do say a successful treble good luck with that. A Blue Moon.
    It will not effect the competition as Class will out and we all know Gforce, Robj, Rakib, David and Alan are coming to get us all anyway.

    I am also inclined to listen to the wise words of Luke and QdB that a closed forum is not the best option as it is not inclusive and incites Maoism and we should accept the dodgy ads and give it a go unless the ads get really annoying.
    My nap tomorrow is Mister Fogpatches in the 14.25 at Cheltenham.

    Like

    1. I like Mister Fogpatches too, such a whole-hearted trier, hope he goes well for you. His name sounds like the name of cat though, not a horse – how do we know you’re not trying to incite Miaowism, egs?

      Like

      1. Good call for a Cat Name.
        My Cat is currently poorly and soiling everywhere but had a fantastic life and I have been wrestling with a name for it’s eventual successor.
        As far as I can see Fogpatches do not appear on any animal fur print least of all Cats.
        I never liked Children’s TV but I think it must have been a Cat Cartoon Character that never reached pilot stage.

        Like

    2. EGS. For clarification, Yes, forum must be open. No, I do not advocate dodgy ads, not at all. Or Maoism (I hope I made that clear. Some thought Mao’s exhortation on flowers blooming was a trap to bring dissidents into the open who could then be dealt with. I knew someone who worked in China in those dark days (English teacher) and he told me that every wekend there were executions). He was a good man and, like me, favoured second hand Saabs.

      I shall chip in as I said a couple of days ago. I watch quite a lot of TV on More4 but I am driven slightly mad by constant betting advertising aimed at goodness knows what audience. I suppose it gives me time to keep up my Tweet level against the political evils of our time. Do bookies think that those watching somewhat obscure European policiers and thrilllers on Walter Presents (currently it’s a beautifuly filmed Polish drama “PAKT”) are going to play online Bingo?

      I haven’t looked at the races, so no naps yet.

      Like

    3. Well played EGS on your fine double. Its nice when the SP drift moves in your favor, I’ve seen you land straight forecasts in the past on nap board and I’m sure that wasn’t you’re first stab at a double either, Fair play i think if its a single bet. its no extra work for Joe so I don’t see why not.

      Like

    4. No no maybe in gulf only irish bred i see in usa tonight .
      1 month since crash slow improving.
      Elliott does well in dundalk .
      B gud

      Like

  6. Although I suspect enrilo might win the 14:25 at Cheltenham, I am too tempted by santini at nearly 10s. Sky paying 4 places, so I would expect a place, but I’m going for a win nap in the hope that the change of yard might bring the best out of him.

    Like

    1. Didn’t realise major Dundee was racing in Bangor, so would have napped that today. Oh well I’ve gone with santini now, so let’s stick with that!

      Like

  7. Punxsutawney Phil ew 1.15
    a) Think all naps should be settled at SP on racing post returns re places etc for sake of simplicity ( I’ve done a couple of EWs recently both of which finished 7th – I did them with WH which paid 7 places! Lucky for me but would be a nightmare if counting in the naps table as who would do the checking?) Same with early prices. Let’s remember it’s supposed to be a bit of fun with a dash of bragging rights thrown in.
    b) We’ll probably never get the full story in the Frost/Dunne affair but the PJA and some Dunne supporters have done themselves no favours with the whiff of ‘a bit of bullying never did me any harm’ defence. Possibly true in their cases but in some other cases people have been broken to the point of taking their own lives by bullying in the workplace (I speak with a bit of authority having been a trade union official in a previous incarnation dealing with similar affairs – on one occasion I probably betrayed my position when I told a young man with a young family to give up fighting a case in which he had a reasonable chance of winning because he told me he had twice sat in his car contemplating driving off some cliffs. I’ve never seen someone so relieved when he accepted this and walked away from the job). Although the case involved two of their own members the PJA have not, in my opinion, come out of this well and perhaps need to look at how they manage themselves. Although ‘winning’ the case it sounds like Miss Frost will be in a dark and lonely position in the future and in many ways will have lost. Hope I’m wrong on that. Apologies if this sounds a bit pompous but it’s a sincerely held position.

    Like

    1. That’s a very fair and balanced opinion which is what I would expect from you .However .
      There has been a series of events in this which need looking at .

      Exactly how many witnesses did the BHA put up saying that they heard Dunne bullying or being overly aggressive to Frost ,apart from herself . A bloke at a fence ,ffs ,and a female amateur, it’s a competitive sport and if you cant take getting a rollicking, whatever sex you are in the heat of battle you need to get out.Fast.

      Compare that to the number put up by the defence saying they had not witnessed any of the above,both male and female with Lizzie Kelly’s statement hitting the nail on the head.Would they all lie ?

      Yet somehow the panel ignore these witnesses ,which included proper people of both sexes and found Dunne guilty which was the biggest cert going judging by all the pre case publicity.

      The major leaking to a newspaper of key documents and the sudden departure of the lead investigator badly compromised the BHA case and meant that Dunne was kippered up in effect .Would the case have gone ahead in law after that ?

      On top of that should it have really taken 18 months to dot the i and cross the ts ?

      In the weighing room it’s all hurly burly with people coming in and out ,officials ,the stipe, stewards ,valets ,trainers nicking a cuppa or some grub. Not one of those people it seems has come forward to say they saw or heard Dunne doing what hes been banned for. That seems odd to me as I’ve seen lads chuck their tack down and blow a fuse after being chopped up or cut up and things get tasty but were soon calmed down when wise heads and officials stepped in.
      I’m baffled why Frost ,or one of the above especially ,didnt report things to the stewards on duty on the day/days and get things sorted in house if it was as bad as is being implied .
      Frost going about things the way she has is such a pity.

      “Rancid atmosphere ” that really was a disgraceful thing to say by a smart arse lawyer who has no expirence of a weighing room ,as the PJA have said .

      It seems to me that Facebook and Twitter then took over and drove things and a phone call threatening to “break your legs Robbie “seems not to have been taken into much account .

      Look how all this kicked off , Frost repeatedly ignored advice from her colleagues about her riding , and continued to do so as Lizzie Kelly implied in her statement with the words that meant Frost didnt want to know when people tried to tell her and got above herself .

      I’ve had people like that work for me, what do you do ,whisper sweet nothings and say please listen. The reply you get is the reply Dunne got when Frost told him to fuck off.

      After getting cut up approaching 4 out at Southwell Dunne takes a really bad fall and his horse is killed ,he thinks Frost caused it and things got out of hand after and then continued.

      If she told him to do one if he was going at her to hard ,fair play to the girl . Ive heard a certain female jock let rip and she made 2 senior lads look bloody stupid pulling up at home recently but a few minutes later all was back to normal at breakfast with the piss taking and banter going full on. Some can take it ,some cant ,but that’s life isnt it . I dont condone the flashing incident and again someone should have dealt with that on the day .
      Personally I would have had a right go at him for that or if I had seen or heard him being aggressive as every trainer I know would as well.
      That’s the part I dont get ,in racing ,as tough and hard as it is ,amongst the people in it there is a real feeling of camaraderie and respect ,especially in NH.

      At 16 I was quite nippy winger and took the piss out of an older pro ,doing him on the inside and saying ta ta grandad and making donkey noises as I did him again. The old man and skipper had warned me he was a killer but big head took no notice and on the third time when I went outside he took me out across the hips ,breaking 2 ribs,knocking the wind out of me in the process.My broken nose didnt come from me slipping in the showers after either . I learnt very quickly after that .

      Frosts dad asked Chris Maude to knock their heads together and get things sorted , what did Frost do, she refused. I dont understand that .

      I hope Dunne appeals ,18 months is ludicrous ,its depriving him of his livelihood, if he was going at her to hard then fine the arse off him. I’ve not heard ,seen or read anything that suggests to me he was but hes fallen foul of the PC and pansy culture ,the total ineptitude of the BHA who are exactly what Charlie Mann said ,a bunch of idiots and once again led by someone with no working grass roots knowledge of the sport .

      Before I get quotes like workplace ,etc a dressing room in any sport is not that ,its a place where you go to prepare to compete against each other to win. To do that you have to be mentally tough first and foremost to take the highs ,lows and stick. The higher level you get ,the harder you have to get ,that’s what it takes .

      Like

      1. What you have said there demonstrates a complete lack of understanding why yesterday’s decision is a watershed moment within the sport. David Bass also showed a complete lack of understanding about the decisions importance. He really should have not been persuaded to give that interview to rtv which although probably not viewed by many in the day is available on you tube. Not only was he inarticulate mumbling away he was also very sadly wrong.

        Because reform is not wanted does not mean it is not needed. Up to now the usual ‘you don’t know what your talking about’ put down has been sufficient to keep things as they were. The belittling phrase can be quite effective. No longer. Exposed were practices dating back to a time many many years ago. No longer relevant in this world. It’s amazing how these old fashioned traditions have survived this long. But again, no longer. Lester Piggott was once described as a, general pain who needed to be taught a lesson. Similar to your views about Bryony.

        Someone thinks she will regret this and be stuck in a lonely place somewhere with few friends. I don’t think so. Robbie Dunn was show to be a nasty vindictive individual who was aggressive verbally using language that was unacceptable, a bully and dishonest. How on earth a second rate jockey like him came to think of himself as an enforcer within the weighing room goodness knows. It probably made him feel big just as belittling Bryony did too. Or maybe he was just plain jealous.

        All the neccasary arguments and discussion have been had. Done and dusted. If the current crop of pretty average NH jockeys do not like it then they should retire, starting with Tom Scudamore whos testimony I found the most disappointing. Their is a dearth of top jockeys at the moment in NH racing and maybe that’s been another factor, clearly Bryony has a high profile, is very talented with a knack of getting the very best out of her mounts and is extremely popular. No wonder she’s upset a few.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. i don’t have your horse experience but I’ve got your football tale in my background though not quite not so bad, i made the mistake of laughing at a Goalie after i’d chipped him inside the box to score in a game between more or less two work sides at about 22 or so. Next time in the box he went thriugh me like a tank – must have flew 4 feet. Carried off and was weeks before my ankle could take weight and months to i played again. A sore lesson and one learned by many of my peers too. Sport is a fucking tough game played competitively at any level, the higher the tougher. The bad language is deliberate for emphasis and i think appropriate here.

        Like

      3. I’d always bow to your greater knowledge of racing Dilton but it’s interesting you bring up football because I’ve been ruminating on that. I gave up local league (local league FFS!) football because of lesser players threatening to break my legs and then giving it a go – it must be much worse in competitive sport in which your actual livelihood is involved. We all know about the ones who prospered but I wonder how many young jockeys gave up because of the weighing room culture of toughening you up? One, none or a few? There’s plenty of talk about Frost’s riding but given EVERY single ride she’s ever had is readily available to be viewed I think it’s odd that his defence couldn’t bring a single example of dangerous riding to the court? It’s probably not that simple and hard to be definitive but must be a pause for thought? Again, without knowing all the ins and out (and I get why racing is sometimes called ‘the village’ ) my take is that Frost didn’t give the old pro jocks the deference they expected as a right and had she been a young male jockey she would have had the Dunne enforcer treatment but as a woman who was not only not showing deference but actually outriding them in big races she got both barrels as it were. As said, you will know far more than me Dilton and I’d take your view on the Southwell ride, but I’d bet some of what I’m speculating on won’t be that far from the truth of the matter because it’s down to human nature – which I think I might occasionally have a handle on.

        Liked by 1 person

      4. On your points, Dilton …

        How many witnesses could the BHA find? Very few, because almost to a man and woman, they were on Dunne’s side.

        “In the weighing room it’s all hurly burly with people coming in and out ,officials ,the stipe, stewards ,valets ,trainers nicking a cuppa or some grub. Not one of those people it seems has come forward to say they saw or heard Dunne doing what hes been banned for”

        This catch all use of ‘the weighing room’ has not helped people understand what has happened. As you know. The weighing room is an open area used by those you name. But most of the abuse took place in the jockey’s room/changing room, which, in my experience is the almost exclusive domain of jocks and valets, very seldom encroached upon by others. That’s why witnesses were limited.

        “I’m baffled why Frost ,or one of the above especially ,didnt report things to the stewards on duty on the day/days and get things sorted in house if it was as bad as is being implied”

        And had she done that from the outset, without trying to sort it out, what would you and others be saying about her?

        ‘I hope Dunne appeals ,18 months is ludicrous ,its depriving him of his livelihood’

        Well, I hope he never returns to a racecourse. I think he might yet be fortunate not to be charged by police. You don’t behave in the manner Dunne has out of some kind of duty to attain professional advantage, you do it because it’s in your character – meanness, bullying, an appetite for savaging the weak, the ‘pansies’, as you memorably refer to them.

        “Frosts dad asked Chris Maude to knock their heads together and get things sorted , what did Frost do, she refused. I dont understand that”

        Jimmy Frost was once part of that culture, deeply enmeshed in it, so reacted accordingly – Bryony must have said, no, it’s no longer right to add more and more layers to the culture, it’s time to change it.

        ‘Before I get quotes like workplace ,etc a dressing room in any sport is not that ,its a place where you go to prepare to compete against each other to win. To do that you have to be mentally tough first and foremost to take the highs ,lows and stick. The higher level you get ,the harder you have to get ,that’s what it takes’

        I think your last sentence sums up exactly the qualities Frost has shown, and more. In the end, she was tougher than all the hard men, the hard men who circled the wagons and pulled in all their colleagues, against a lone young woman who just wasn’t going to take it any more.

        Whatever folk think of her – uppity, rebellious, doesn’t know her place – by God, you’ve got to admire her courage.

        Liked by 1 person

        1. On the point about Bryony Frost’s father: he set up the meeting without consulting his daughter. Maybe it was well intended, but there is a point where a parent has to accept that their adult child’s decision must be respected. I guess he thought it would not end well as no-one had ever challenged the “unwritten rules” even though they were being abused.

          Like

        2. So Joe , Tom Scu who is his fathers son and like him a decent nice bloke ,Dickie J who is as genuine as they come ,and all those other defence witnesses were lying were they and all part of the culture that you mention ,but have no first hand knowledge about .

          Hoping Dunne never sees the racecourse again is a bit harsh isnt it, as for calling the cops I think they might have more serious things to do.

          Like

          1. I think Tom Scudamore and his whole family are thoroughly decent people, Dicky too, but it doesn’t make them immune to human nature. Having read and listened to various views, my final take for now on what happened is this – For quite some time, and away from this case, many/most of her colleagues dislike Bryony at various levels. Even thoroughly decent people can justify looking the other way when it comes to someone they can’t stand. This is the fallout.

            Like

          2. If I may say, Tom Scudamore has not come out of this very well at all. Bryony stated that he and her often went racing together and got on well. When she decided to put the complaint in he immediately blanked her. No shared lifts no conversation at all. Extremely childish behaviour and cruel too. When questioned he stated covid and social distancing measures prevented close contact. An obvious excuse. Covid restrictions were in place two years ago, Bryony’s complaint was lodged well after. Yes Scudamore comes across as a genuine man he obviously carries some weight when expressing his thoughts and no doubt as a senior jockey has influence within the jockeys weighing room. Nevertheless he is not half the jockey his father was. He is however a father. He has at least one young daughter, she made a name for herself when announcing her dad’s imminent retirement much to Scudamores surprise. I wonder how he would react if she were the victim of bullying called a c**t and a slag and threatened with physical harm. I wonder if that thought crossed his mind, I would be pretty sure it did. He should apologise. That’s how you regain respect. It’s also the measure of a man. Several present and ex jockeys should also be apologising, Johnson also has young daughters. I think it shows how far adrift from decent human behaviour these people have become and I’m totally sure the separated off weighing room contributes to a mindset that allows behaviour that would not be accepted by their wives at home. Almost a double life. I am sure this culture is as bad as described in the hearing, I am equally sure that the jockey reaction is entirely because they have been rumbled and exposed. They are not above the law, they are not special people even though it seems they think they are.
            An obvious issue that has become apparent is just what role the BHA has in regulating jockey behaviour. Their options are limited because most if not all jockeys are self employed. Only if rules that pertain to their behaviour on course are broken can the BHA act. Bringing the sport into disrepute off course is not something they can follow up on. That would be different if jockeys had a contract of employment with an employer. It’s a loophole. Jockeys join the PJA and pay their subs and also pay for insurance. Why the PJA exists is not quite clear to me. Do they need a union if self employed? The PJA seems an inflated bag of wind that may at this moment be leaking quite badly. Certainly they do not seem to have any control of their members and seem to have forgotten totally that Bryony is a paid up member. No doubt a condition of having a jockey licence is to become a member, if so it’s a job for life for these people. It seems to me they are as responsible as anyone for propagating this dressing room culture and if I was advising them I would suggest they should apologise to Bryony instead of going on tv talking about how they tried to help her as if she had got herself into a bit of bother.

            Liked by 1 person

      5. My earlier reference to boarding school in the 60s and 70s was deliberate . I had ten years of it and whilst I experienced some pretty unpleasant stuff , the treatment meted to some other boys was brutal . The point is that nothing , of course , was ever said to masters . For a boy to break the code of silence meant he really was at the end of his tether .I therefore find it difficult to believe that BF went through all this breaking of the “code of the weighing room “ just because RD was being a bit of a berk .

        Like

      6. A dispassionate reading of the summary conclusion of the independent panel does not leave any wriggle room for quibbling, though the PJA have managed to put themselves into a straitjacket with a catastrophically misguided statement. The Independent panel’s conclusion – full written detailed judgement is going to be issued in due course – is unequivocally stated. It would be worth quoting the whole of it, but this alone is sufficient,

        “The need is also in an environment and workplace where men and women compete with courage on equal terms, safe in the knowledge that the standards universal in other walks of life will apply.”

        Is that really too much to ask?

        I think you are incorrect about the weighing room not being part of the workplace. In addition, the employer has a legal duty of care (which extends even beyond working hours).

        I am sorry that in the past, as a vulnerable youngster, grievous bodily harm was done to you in football. I think you drew entirely the wrong conclusion from the brutal thug who, with malice aforethought, badly harmed you physically i.e. that it was somehow O.K. and a good lesson to be learned. It was most certainly not O.K. and could never be. That is not what elite sport or “pro sport” is about. In fact it offends one of the key principles of what “sporting” means.

        To quote the BHA legal representative in the case,

        “”You wouldn’t, in rugby, allow a player to go on the pitch saying I am going to break his leg or high tackle him,” Weston added. “You wouldn’t allow a motor racer to say I will take him out at the first bend. It is amazing that anyone in this case is saying it is okay. You can’t have a sport that is open to men and women if they are able, and it is tolerated, that they get called a whore at work. It is so far beyond the pale, it doesn’t come down, in my submission, as a slight judgement around the edges, it is miles over.”

        The case was judged by Brian Barker, a former appeal court judge and a former Recorder of London, then the most senior judge at the Old Bailey. With him were former judge James O’Mahony and Alison Royston, a former head of administration for the Premier League. Judges choose their words with consummate care. They are trained over many years to assess the evidence which is put before them impartially and all the arguments are given due weight. If anyone is qualified to assess verbal evidence for its truthfulness and consistency it is hard to think of anyone better. Double guessing and and quibbling when we were not privy to the whole of the evidence is pointless. Its only point, in truth, is to try to undermine the verdict.

        You say Bryony Frost “Got above herself”. This does mean that you have a particular view of how she “ought” to have behaved. According to whose set of values? “Got above herself” seems to mean that Bryony Frost did not toe the line but that she exercised her right to stand up for herself and some “senior” self appointed people and their followers did not and do not like it. She had the right to do so as every jockey should when faced with totally unacceptable forms of behaviour.

        “PC and pansy culture” are, I take it, pejorative terms used when there are no other arguments to be found. Pansies are one of the most cheering flowers, especially in the dark days of winter, so I am a little surprised to see it used negatively. I expect we need a culture of nettles, vicious thorns and giant hogweed.

        Would it not be best if all those in the sport accepted the verdict that Robbie Dunne was found guilty after due process on four charges that he bullied and harassed Bryony Frost. Furthermore that they roll up their sleeves and adapt the best of their current practices so that they are consistent with what the Panel called “the standards universal in other walks of life”.

        Liked by 2 people

      7. Dilton. I’ve always respected your knowledge. I remember sitting in a café in Cyprus reading your post about your journey to the hospital and felt empathy and compassion. I’ve disagreed with your ignorant views about Brexit – the truths are now becoming apparent – but have respected them. But your use of “pansy culture” sinks to a new low. My son and his husband have just adopted their first child. Not doubt, in your world, there’s something wrong in that. Bryony Frost is a woman who has been bullied. End of. I’d suggest that you go to a woman’s refuge to talk to some women who have been abused. it might open our eyes. I doubt it, though. I don’t think I’ll engage with you again.

        Liked by 1 person

        1. No, I’ve not got a problem with that at all and just to stick my ignorant views to you my 47 yo son died 4 years ago today and he was gay .
          My wife ran Somerset Early Years and Childrens centres and I’ve been to more funding evenings at Refuges that you’ve had hot dinners so you can stick that one as well.

          Like

          1. “you can stick that one as well”. Charming, as always. Fine, you’re son was gay but you use the pejorative “pansy culture”. You really are a anachronistic troglodyte.

            Liked by 1 person

            1. Strange isnt it ,you can call me ignorant for voting what I believe in yet when you get some back you get uppity. Cant take it ,dont say it .

              Like

  8. I have no doubt that the overall impact of the weighing room on jockey safety is positive. I also do not doubt that the weighing room has done many good things for stricken jockeys. But the advocates of leaving the weighing room as it are wrong. The evidence of the Frost case shows that it failed to protect one of its members (as did the PJA). It doesn’t matter that (it is argued) Bryony Frost could/should have dealt with it in a different way. It doesn’t matter that other women jockeys say they have found it to be O.K. The case reveals that the secret “procedures” of the weighing room are flawed and open to abuse.

    I think the most stupid thing I read was that Bryony Frost was advised by another woman jockey that she should have given Dunne a slap. If someone does not understand why that was stupid advice, they have not studied any jurisprudence. (It hands the aggressive bully a tailor made defence).

    The public perception is hugely important and it puts the reputation of horseracing, the PJA (though few know what that is) and, yes, BHA, into serious jeopardy.

    The best solution is for all to accept that the current system must be reformed as a matter of urgency.

    I must say that I am inclined to think that those who are most resistant to change are those who do not wish to find themselves subject to effective regulation which might challenge the old methods which suit them.

    I think the longer that the jockeys and their supporters on the inside try to deny what has happened, the more likely they are to achieve exactly what they do not want. They should recognise that there is no way to keep things as they are.

    I think that Bryony Frost’s courage has been awesome and inspiring, particularly as she will have been fully aware of the hostility which her determination to fight the intimidation was causing, and would cause in the future. A great many young jockeys (men and women) will have her to thank for transparent and fair systems of regulation which they will be able to access in the future.

    The dark background through which her courage shines is the responsibility of the leaders of the rank closing. For some humble pie and hair shirts instead of silks should be the order of the day. But it won’t.

    Like

      1. That’s good of you to say so, Paulo. If only Bryony Frost had had some moral support. It’s hard to imagine what an ordeal she had to go through. It’s pretty dreadful that someone did not have the courage to stand with her to face down the heavyweight Dons who would have made it quite evident that support for Bryony would have been a, “straight to execution, no trial” offence.

        Like

  9. Re the Naps competition: I think SP and standard EW terms, are the only way to easily settle any possible disputes – yes, we all take BOG and enhanced places, but would be a nightmare to try and verify this is if there was disagreement, plus it’s meant to be fun, and Joe’s time and effort shouldn’t be added to. EGS has also scored a straight forecast in the past, as well as the double, and these are fairly easy to verify, so I’d be happy with allowing them, but making it singles only would be simpler – happy either way.

    Liked by 1 person

  10. The Frost-Dunne case is a sad one. i don’t think there’s any winners.

    Bryony F is able to effortlessly convey the pure joy of riding a winning horse in a pretty unique way which makes her a TV natural and so a big positive for racing – but she”s not picking up many spare rides soon i fancy. i know little of Robbie D to be honest, how much of the case was based on heat of the moment outburst and how much could be construed as planned bullying wasn’t clear. The panel took a view and he will have to do his time.

    I’ve never ridden a horse over fences and felt someone has cut me up to the risk of my life to know how angry i’d feel but i’ve seen enough folk behind the relative safety of a car swear and offer punches in the safety of supermarket car parks over perceived interference to imagine the anger could be great for many. And hang around some time.

    From all ive read over the years the weighing room does seem to be a good place to be. Its high level dangerous sport there will be fallouts but plenty of retired Jockeys miss the company of their former peers and I think all the talk of rancid culture is OTT. Any former jockeys here can tell me if i’m wrong.

    Liked by 1 person

  11. oh yeah todays nap. Voyburg in the donnie 14.50. tempted to double with England to win first test after that fine mornings work but wont. I love Test cricket – the shifting sands that see England worst team in world at end of day 2 and battling heros this morning . There is nothing like it in sport.

    Like

  12. Re Frost/Dunne case: As a follower of the sport, with no knowledge of the weighing room, and not following Twitter, here’s my thoughts…
    Pretty much no one has come out of this well and it’s crazy to have taken so long to settle it.
    I think Frost has been brave, she must have known she would be ostracised and has tried to tackle unacceptable behaviour. I think the PJA, with their response, have shown she would have got nowhere trying to pursue it with them, but was there a better way? Possibly, as Dilton suggested, raising it with the stewards (and maybe she could have taken on board advice/criticism earlier). I don’t think she should have just taken it on the chin and there should be a way of addressing these issues – relatively minor disputes can be worked through, but this became something else – and she was isolated when there should have been support.
    The PJA has been woefully misguided in some of its response to this case – it’s shown huge support for Dunne, and even after the verdict, shown very little support for another of its members: Frost. The idea that there was no other evidence that other professional riders could have provided is unbelievable – how did they not hear exchanges that have been admitted to?! Yet, when within earshot, they claim to have heard nothing untoward – this smacks of a closed shop, where people keep their mouths shut, rather than being honest about what they witnessed. But I can certainly understand anger at the way the BHA seems to have damned absolutely everyone in the weighing room, and somehow, yet again admit no responsibility at all!
    The BHA has taken far too long over this, and their investigation methods (as well as investigator) cast doubts over the fairness of information gathered, and the way the whole affair was handled. The idea that these are ‘entirely independent panels’ does not hold water, when they use the same people time and again who clearly profit from their association with the BHA. In the past, cases have folded because ‘independents’ have been directly paid by the BHA for other work. If the BHA had acted sooner over other matters, possibly, it would not have to come this (like pressing for better female facilities).
    And finally Dunne: his behaviour has been totally unacceptable, but he too should have been taken to task earlier, to stop the situation escalating in the way it did. If the weighing room was working effectively for all – his behaviour should have been tackled sooner, and violent aggressive outbursts after traumatic incidents might not have festered. He deserves to be punished, but I think it’s too harsh – a lesser ban and fine. I think he’s being made and an example of and he’s caused less damage to racing than certain other individuals pictured with dead horses.

    Liked by 1 person

  13. Commodore 2.25 Che is the nap sadly he has been pricewised.Well done yesterdays winners.I would think we all back at early prices,but it will be so much easier to settle the naps at SP that it has to be SP.

    Like

  14. Goobinator in the 14:15 at Doncaster for me.

    RE Frost/Dunne, a lot of wise words above. It does seem hard to believe that things couldn’t have been resolved sooner, and it does seem that few if any of the players come out of it well. One thing I’d add: the claim that a certain profession or workplace is somehow special and therefore should be an exception to the usual rules governing workplace behaviour and indeed just, you know, behaviour is surprisingly common. I’ve heard it made about academia, advertising, finance, politics, seafaring, etc etc. I find it hard to believe that all these professions are so special that they should be exceptions to the rules. That lowers my degree of conviction that any profession is so special.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Thats a fair point – i think whatever job you work in there’s a certain culture associated. Life isnt one size fits all, why should work be. its certainly a topic that’s raised some strong opinions.

      Like

    1. Probably not but I think the actual issues are different – one (more serious in terms of end result) revolves around dangerous riding, the other, although involving allegations of dangerous riding is primarily seen through the prism of bullying. The main crossover is probably the light shown on the weighing room behaviours – in that nobody saw fit to call out Gibbons (despite his record with alcohol) for riding whilst smelling of drink. Can you imagine this being allowed a free pass in F1 for instance? As others have said both affairs ultimately reflect badly on racing and those involved in racing – and the shame is that those who are blame free are now tarred by that particular brush.

      Liked by 1 person

  15. When will the full transcript be published?
    I certainly didn’t follow the legal proceedings.
    A Nurse Manager once asked me can you defend yourself against an accusation of bullying and I had to give her the bad news that you can’t.
    Just go on an anti-bullying course to keep your job.
    There are 2 things you cannot defend yourself against; Bullying and Racism.
    It seems to me to be a Governance fiasco.
    I was always tought whilst there are many versions of the truth (and Kurosawa depicts this complexity in Throne of Blood) once you are on the back foot the version of the truth ventured by your protagonist will trump. So, apologise very early.
    Poor early advice and mediation I suspect.

    Like

  16. I thought this was called Horsetalk not Disciplinary Tribunal Talk . . . Some quite interesting things are going on around the country, but you would never guess from reading this lot.

    I made a point about the Haslam/McManus modus operandi a few weeks ago and got thoroughly slapped down for it. Since that particular case was highlighted we have two others following the same pattern, Scoop The Pot and Dr Sanderson. The Doc, ex-Paul Nicholls, has been shedding pounds quicker than a bride to be at a fat farm. Placings in his Haslam career have been 6th of 9, 8/8, 8/8, 7/7, 4/7, 8/9 (all at big odds) during which his mark “eased” from 135 to 112. A dizzying drop in six months. Last month he reversed that by winning at Ayr off 112 (6/1f) and followed up today at Doncaster (10/3f). The stewards look elsewhere when all this is going on.

    Christ knows what Paul Nicholls was doing with hi. He needs to pull his finger out, that lad.

    Like

    1. “I thought this was called Horsetalk not Disciplinary Tribunal Talk”.
      Blimey. A female jock is shown to be bullied, harassed and threatened with violence in the work place, as judged by an independent assessment, and you seem to think it not worthy of a passing discussion on a horse racing forum.
      And furthermore you mock that discussion ( some proper thought through comments here I have to say) by describing it as ‘this lot’.
      Dear me…

      Like

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.